Nope, I don’t think he will have to kill him! Donato believed himself beyond return; hence why he was beyond return.
Shirazu and Hairu (the two most likely characters to return) are not like that, and in general, it isn’t fighting that solves anything in TG. We see that with the recent Owl fight, in that every time they stab Owl, Owl explodes and injures more of them. Communication and empathy solve things in TG, and I think what would happen is more than likely they have to fight Shirazu, but save him a la the fight to save Urie and then to save Mutsuki, in which Urie would have to be open about his feelings for once: he didn’t think Shirazu was useless. He relied on him. He loved him (no, not romantically, but the Qs all love each other). Shirazu would then probably die in peace, trusting the Qs to provide for Haru.
I shall quote my friend @cirrocumulus-cloud and say that this creature’s brain is an accurate representation of Urie’s:
Baby goldfish needs to be called on his issues and actually follow up and follow through with his promises. Open your mouth and do what you said you would do, Urie.
Shirazombie and Mutsurie would be good ways to resolve these issues, I think, because Urie can’t just leave these things up in the air. He’s faced consequences for the terrorist thing (Kuroiwa died in front of him, repeating his trauma and also putting him in Kuroiwa’s shoes), the Suzuya thing (he almost lost Mutsuki, but Saiko saved the day), but has yet to face consequences for Shirazu’s body and for Haru. He also hasn’t told Mutsuki his own emotions because #masculinityandrepression and since Saiko isn’t here right now this is his best opportunity to do it (not saying Saiko is in any way a problem, just saying Urie uses her to speak his emotions for him when he’s got to learn to say it on his own).
A great question. I think Higemaru is meant to reflect Urie, Hsiao Saiko, and Aura Mutsuki–however, it hasn’t been properly elaborated within the story at this point, with the exception of Aura. Their arcs are intertwined with their respective Q; hence I’m hoping for more Hsiao but if Saiko’s arc is just her sleeping I really don’t know.
I would also like to see Higemaru, someone whose family legacy is to help people, realize that the CCG is the furthest thing from helping around the time that Urie decides that this isn’t the legacy he wants to continue.
Hello lovely Anon; I hope you are having an otter-rific day!
So, here is why I think the manga condemns Kaneki for leaving the Qs. I don’t see “demonization” necessarily, if that makes sense, but rather just people wanting Kaneki to apologize and make things right. At least that’s where I stand. I want him to learn and grow from this.
Juuzou and Mucchy is complicated and I’m… frustrated with the pacing of this plot point lol! So the last time this was specifically brought up was when Urie wanted to talk to Suzuya about Mutsuki, didn’t, and all hell broke loose. And then the last time we specifically saw them interacting was when Suzuya saw Mutsuki go after Uta and was proud of him and thought him like Shinohara.
No, Suzuya, no. But he did not abandon Mutsuki; he just mis-mentored him like Sasaki was doing too. My guesssss is that this plot point will be resolved when Suzuya turning into a ghoul, which I do strongly believe is happening, hits the fan. Because I would love for Suzuya to realize that the reason he loves Shinohara is because Shinohara loved him, not because he was teaching Juuzou to be strong (though he was; he wasn’t perfect after all).
See, if Shinohara saw Juuzou turned into a ghoul, would he kill him? No. He would not. He loved Juuzou like a son. So this provides a good path for Juuzou to realize that a) Shinohara was a good man but not perfect (because if he wouldn’t kill Juuzou what was he doing killing ghouls at all?) enabling him to move past his father figure, and b) to move forward mentoring Mutsuki who does need mentorship.
Mutsuki and the Oggai is simply not coded the same way Kaneki mentoring the Qs was. There were 100 of them and one of Mutsuki, so it was not a family dynamic; hence why I would not say Mutsuki’s behavior warrants the same narrative effects as Kaneki ditching the Qs. Remember that in TG family dynamics, particularly the parental responsibility for a child, is extremely important as a theme, and that never came into the Mutsuki-Oggai dynamics, which we never really saw any of besides battles.
That being said, of course Mutsuki’s behavior with the Oggai was wrong. It’s a blind leading the blind situation; you can’t have a child raising children, a person breaking down from trauma guiding traumatized orphans. It could only ever be a disaster. Hence why Urie’s leading hte Qs was also Not Great. (And yes we should draw a parallel and be like uhhh maybe Kaneki should never have been mentoring the Qs, but the CCG again. That damn CCG.)
Oooh. So I think he realized them earlier actually! I think he started feeling them, to be honest, right after the hug. We see him protecting Mutsuki when Torso attacks.
He vows to protect Mutsuki when he’s lost on Rushima.
Then of course there’s this on Rushima:
after Mutsuki is bitten by Amon.
And this afterwards, remarking on Mutsuki’s outfit:
Basically, Urie’s had feelings for Mutsuki for awhile. After Saiko saves him in a parallel to Mutsuki saving him, I think Urie realizes just how important the Qs’ family is to him, and that he loves them and they love him, which they do. I think people try to make it about Saiko vs Mutsuki and that’s not the way it should be seen. Love is beautiful and powerful be it familial or romantic. Urie’s feelings for Mutsuki are romantic and there is no indication of romance for Urie and Saiko at all in the manga, but that doesn’t mean that he automatically categorized what had happened in them saving him differently if that makes sense. Those scenes in the auction and in the clown raids both showed Urie that he was loved and that he was seen and empathized with.
Urie loves Mutsuki and Urie loves Saiko, just like Mutsuki loves Urie and Saiko, and Saiko loves Urie and Mutsuki. They are a family. Urie’s love for Mutsuki has a romantic element to it that is not present (that we know of) in the other loves, but all of these peoples’ loves for each other is powerful.
I mean, to be honest, yes they were wrong for ignoring him, but Mutsuki still made his own choices and for that particular fight he was the one lashing out. And we did get a Mutsuki and Urie talk, and we also got Mutsuki trying to have a more serious talk with Urie on Dragon, but Urie was too focused on Le Job, which I’m guessing is foreshadowing that they will have a more serious talk later on. I would have preferred an acknowledgement of that during their resolution as well, but I still think we might get that.
I am in love with the symbolism regarding the Quinx and the four wise monkeys. And it is incredibly interesting to understand that each one of them resembles one monkey in particular, but what I find even more interesting is that the world of Tokyo Ghoul as a whole treats these four characters with the same flaws that they posses and struggle with and it all culminates in the death of Shirazu.
There is more to the four monkeys than just their resemblance to the personality traits of the Quinx. It also represents every kind of Evil that one can do to a person.
The World does the Quinx Evil.
Let me explain how:
“Hear no Evil.” – Saiko
Saiko resembles the monkey who keeps its hands over its ears. Throughout Tokyo Ghoul :re she is a character who struggles with being more than dead weight because her ability to listen is remarkably poor. She isn’t one to act no matter how dire the situation, prefers to drown out the world by playing video games and indulging in everything but listening to orders and regulations.
Saiko drowns out the world.
The world drowns out Saiko.
She never chose this path, she got put into this situation by her mother who did not listen to her wishes but was in it for the money. Within the CCG her wish to just live life in peace falls on deaf ears, with her team trying to get her to cooperate even though she clearly would prefer to sit in her room and play video games.
This trend of ignoring what Saiko, a character whose biggest flaw is that she doesn’t listen to other people, wants keeps up even after Shirazu has passed away. She doesn’t want to be anything but herself and it takes her a remarkable amount of time until she is even ready to become a terrorist together with Urie – not that she does anything, really. But it’s never about what Saiko wants, so, narratively, it makes sense for her to be far away from the plot.
After all the world doesn’t hear Saiko’s plight, why should it give her attention in the form of an arc?
“See no Evil.” – Mutsuki
Mutsuki resembles the monkey who keeps its hands over its eyes. During Tokyo Ghoul :re Mutsuki first appears as a character who would like to remain unseen. Tooru hates stares, especially those of men, and does his best to keep attention away from him. All things considered he is a rather shy character with a defined problem of being in the limelight and would prefer to stay in the shadows.
Once he snaps due to torture and having his parental figure taken from him, he does everything in his ability to make himself be seen. He becomes a direct contrast to his former persona, embodying what he shouldn’t be in the most desperate of forms. We learn that Mutsuki has snapped once before, due to torture. It is interesting to note, though, that no matter how far Mutsuki seems to push his violent tendencies, he gets away with it. After all he is working under the CCG, an organisation that grooms violence of burdened souls into tools to be reckoned with.
Mutsuki wants to not be noticed, then does everythingin his power to get noticed.
The world pretends to not notice Mutsuki.
Everyone ever involved with Tooru’s life chose to look away from his plight. His own family decided to ignore what was happening to him brought upon him by his own father. They looked away from all the evil that transpired, opting to pretend that everything is alright and it cost them heavily – their lives.
Only then did the CCG take notice. They saw the evil that Mutsuki had committed and instead of giving the kid some help, they formed him into a tool to be used. Rather than making sure that Mutsuki could work out his trauma, they pretended that he never had harm done to him, declared the murder of his family the slaughtering of a ghoul and set Mutsuki on a quest to become a Ghoul investigator.
When Tooru began to kill cats, they looked away, like they always did. Because the CCG as a whole cares about the end, not the means. And Tooru, with his violent tendencies, is just as much of a perfect test subject as Suzuya was before him.
Worse though is that his own family, the Quinx, ignore his plight after the downward spiral that was Shirazu’s death. With Mutsuki tortured by Torso and broken by Kaneki abandoning him he becomes more and more manic, and the Quinx? Those pretend not to notice. Instead of listening to what he might have to say (Saiko), instead of talking to him about his traumatic experiences (Urie), they let Mutsuki do whatever he wants to do, commenting solely on the blood that can be smelled on him and talking vaguely about feelings.
The world only sees what it wants to see in Mutsuki, and that means that no one sees him for who he is.
“Speak no Evil.” – Urie
Urie resembles the monkey who keeps its hands over its mouth. At the beginning of Tokyo Ghoul :re we meet him as a standoffish character out for his own gain and no one elses. He butts heads with seemingly everyone, is quick to lose his temper and thinks rarely before he speaks. What matters most to him is his professional importance, feelings come second to this, always.
It is no wonder that Urie becomes a glorified lapdog of the CCG, Matsurie in particular, given his opinion about how to treat others and the fact that his loyalties lie with what gets him towards professional glory and attention. Urie is a character who stands in the shadow of his father, a man who chose work over his own son most of the time, and tries desperately to get out of that situation. Urie is so consumed by an inferiority complex that he tries to surpass that everything else falls to the wayside. His biggest flaw is that while he is a character who is easily getting riled up, he stays silent in all of the situations where he could make a difference, where it would count.
Urie holds his mouth to get what he wants.
The world orders Urie around, all the time, and denies him his every wish.
The CCG compares him to his father, all the time, and he cannot possibly get out of his shadow. It tells him what he should do, all the time, and Urie follows through on those requests only to end up with the short end of the stick anyway.
When he finally pushes through his false belief of self importance, when he acknowledges that all of the reward should go towards Shirazu for Shirazu’s bravery, Shirazu dies instead, rendering the time he does open his mouth utterly useless because his words remain unheard, anyway. Worse yet, after Ginshi has passed away Kaneki makes Urie responsible for what is a tragedy, not a blame that you can push onto anyone. His father figure makes it clear to him that he is the reason for his friend’s demise and has no qualms with talking down to Urie.
And Matsurie? The man blinded by his love for Urie lets Urie become his lapdog and Urie, of course, follows, like a pet given orders. When Mutsuki becomes more and more troubled, he doesn’t have the courage to speak to him about it. Urie calls out Takeomi for being oblivious, wishing the loss that he had to endure on Takeomi. As a character Urie grows significantly, but he never breaks out of the cage that the CCG has set around him until far later, where once again he simply follows orders – this time set up by Hide instead.
No matter how many ranks Urie rises during his time as an investigator, the world still treats him as a man whose inferiority complex doesn’t need to be addressed. People instead ignore the pain that he had to face and don’t speak to him about the loss that he had to endure; instead everyone wants him to surpass his father while not really giving him the chance to become his own person. Urie’s wishes do not matter, the health of the CCG as a whole does.
The world gives Urie orders, and he follows, and keeps his mouth shut.
“Do no Evil.”
Shirazu resembles Shizaru, the monkey who is often depicted either holding its genitals or wrapping its arms around itself. During Tokyo Ghoul :re Shirazu is introduced to us as a sort of comic relief character, the not so intelligent person with a good heart. There’s not really a bad bone in his body, despite his rather ruthless appearance and all in all he is a big softie.
But the world does Shirazu evil. A character who is a genuinely good person has to partake in an organisation that kills people to save his sister’s life. And that begins to eat him up inside the moment he kills Nutcracker and realises that ghouls have feelings, too. Suddenly he cannot separate himself from the monstrous actions that he’s seen ghouls commit, he’s a monster himself. It eats him up inside to the point that he pukes after seeing Nutcracker’s quinque. Out of all of the Quinx, he struggles the most with his place in life.
Despite this Shirazu remains a rather positive character who looks out for others and is a highly empathic person who lacks brain smarts but has his heart in the right place. He knows that each one of the Quinx is in a situation where they lack parents, but has enough empathy to realise that Haise, his new father figure, is in an even more dire situation. Shirazu is able to bring Saiko to work physically at least, is way more perceptive of Tooru’s struggles than one might think and knows exactly what riles Urie up. Beyond that he has the mind to put himself into Haise’s shoes, which is a remarkable trait especially in a series like Tokyo Ghoul where characters are plagued by the fact that they cannot understand the struggle of others. Shirazu is the Squad Leader for a reason.
Most of all he is a character willing to go beyond every obstacle to protect the Quinx and his sister.
…and then the world ends him for all of his efforts to protect his family.
It does not just kill him. Suddenly he cannot speak anymore (to the person he’d like to see, Kaneki). Suddenly he cannot hear anymore. Suddenly he cannot see anymore. And only THEN does he die.
What cruelness the world posesses it gives to Shirazu. It breaks a beaten character to the point that said character loses the ability to see a future for those remaining, wishing for his sister, the very person his world revolved around, to die.
The world really does do him evil, in every sense of the word.
I never said it was his fault, actually! I said it was a consequence. See my posts from earlier about narrative vs real life. It’s a narrative consequence, but that doesn’t mean kaneki is responsible for Mutsuki’s choices.
My question is how do you expect Kaneki to atone if he doesn’t learn that he made a mistake? How is he going to learn to be a good dad if he ditched his last kids and never acknowledges it was wrong? I def expect Kaneki to realize this because I do believe he will be a good dad. But I need to see it to believe it especially because Kaneki’s gone in circles a lot, if that makes sense?
According to the last anon the Qs are kids even legally in Japan, so Kaneki calling them kids makes even more sense, and also I think it’s worth noting that parenting does not magically end when your child turns the age of legal . He can’t save Mutsuki but he can apologize, which is helpful in recovery I believe.
(2) but going to something more important I Hope you are doing okey I am so sorry for your loss , I Hope you and your family arw okey and that you can find the confort you need
Thank you so much ❤
So, I think the manga condemns Kaneki’s decision while it doesn’t condemn Rize’s because there’s an important difference in the relationship dynamics. We actually can’t compare them, because it’s apples and oranges. You see, Rize and Furuta’s relationship was only ever two equals, two children linked by Furuta’s crush.
However, Kaneki himself calls the Qs his kids.
That’s a power difference dynamic and while yes, the Qs were of age, Kaneki multiple times stated his intention to be for them the parent they did not have (and all the Qs were vulnerable orphans, and Kaneki knew this). He even vows not to leave the Quinx.
Considering that one of the major themes throughout TG is the pain and harm to the child of a parent choosing something else over their child (Kaneki’s mother, Yoshimura with Eto, etc.) and the pain we saw the Qs suffer, the manga clearly seems to condemn Kaneki’s decision to abandon them without a word. Mutsuki losing it was a direct consequence for Kaneki of this, and it’s the exact question Mutsuki asks him. Why are ghouls more important to you than your children?
Kaneki didn’t answer the question then. I want him to answer it with an apology.
It doesn’t actually matter that the Qs are legally over 18 because trauma doesn’t have an age limit. It didn’t matter to Eto or to Kaneki; when they turned 18 they still suffered the pain of having been abandoned. Having been a teacher myself, if you engage in a mentoring relationship with someone, if you take that responsibility, you are responsible for keeping that up, and if you don’t, it’s on you, because of the power difference. A mentor inherently has more power. If you’re calling yourself a surrogate dad and plan to remedy Saiko’s mother’s abandonment, then you especially have a responsibility, especially when Kaneki himself knows the pain of being not chosen by a parent.
This is why I don’t believe the manga supports the notion that Kaneki was just fine leaving the Qs, and why even in the real world I don’t think it was okay. Kaneki himself vowed to take responsibility, and if he plans to be a good father to his coming baby, he’s gotta start by taking responsibility for the others he called his kids.
Remember, abandonment is kind of a habit of Kaneki’s. He ditched Anteiku and hurt Touka by doing so–was he okay for doing that? He ditched Hide and Hide was not okay because of that. He ditched the Qs, he ditched the CCG, Ayato even called him out on his inability to take responsibility for roles he’s assumed in 113. (A parent=responsibility you can’t just ditch, just like a king=responsibility you can’t just ditch because you don’t feel like it.) Ishida’s made his views on parenting responsibility quite clear through the manga, and the fact that he directly uses the phrases “precious kids” to describe Kaneki’s relationship to the Qs tells us we’re supposed to view the relationship in those terms.